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The Chip Board Archive 06

Re: Pam, I appreciate the fervor ...

"Your airplane example is not apropros because of the safety concerns involved."
Jim, I deliberately picked an extreme example, but there are parallels. (1) My "FAA" marked the engine so it wouldn't be used. V. Gaming control either requires or approves the "destruction/cancellation" of chips so they won't be used. (2) My "curator" eliminated the markings, with innocent intent V. The chip "repairman" eliminated the markings, with innocent intent. (3) My aiplane engine in circulation puts lives at risk V. the altered chips in circulation puts collectors wallets at risk.

"If your car gets in a collision and the fender is dented, do you replace it? Does that make your car a counterfeit?" That makes the car repaired. It is reasonable and customary to repair or alter a car. Refer to your local phone directory and you will find pages of advertising for car repair, detailing, painting, customizing, parts, etc. In my opinion it is not customary to alter a casino chip. Even in the Las Vegas yellow pages I'll bet there isn't one ad for "chip repair". It may be reasonable to alter one, to reverse the effects of an accident such as an inlay falling out....but it is NOT customary for a cancellation hole to be filled in. That is deliberately removing a mark that was put on the chip to prevent it's use.

"Or, how about if the paint job has faded and you repaint it a different color? Counterfeit car? Unethical to sell? Obligated to tell the buyer that the car has been painted? Or, in fact, is that one of the selling points?" It's doubtful that the value of a car would be affected much by the color. That is not, however, the case with a casino chip. For example: Harrah's $2.50 green PMSC value code E. Harrah's $2.50 PMSC yellow value code E DRILLED. Harrah's $2.50 yellow PMSC value code L in very good condition. So, by taking an E value chip and replacing the green with yellow, or filling in the drill hole on a yellow, you are recreating a chip with a perceived value code of L.

"...does that mean we have the right to punish someone NOW for conduct which does not violate our rules..." I think we have different interpretations of our rules.

"Somewhere, tomorrow, someone is going to use a gun to kill some other person. Does that mean today we can punish every person who legally sells a gun just because it might be used to commit that future crime?" Your gun analogy is not apropos because of the safety factor? Also, you need a permit to buy a gun, no permit required to buy chips. You have to explain why you want the gun, and if you say "to commit a crime" you won't get the permit...and the gun is registered to you. If it is used to commit a crime you're going to be asked to explain that. I presume that the wrong explanation could land you in jail.

From our Club Bylaws:
"V. TERMINATION OF MEMBERSHIP
Any member violating the bylaws of this organization, its Constitution, or its Code of Ethics, or who has been convicted of a criminal offense, engaged in conduct unbecoming to a member, or engaging in conduct prejudicial to the welfare of the organization, shall be subject to expulsion or other disciplinary action."

IN MY OPINION, substantially altering a casino chip IS conduct unbecoming to a member. We are collectors, and condition of the chips is of primary importance. I'm not talkng about cleaning a chip, or even repairing accidental damage like reattaching an inlay. I would consider replacing a damaged inlay with an inlay from a different chip to be a substantial alteration, I would consider replacing damaged plastic or filling a drill hole to be a substantial alteration. I would also consider gouging an inlay with a knife to be a substantial alteration. Also, I believe substntially altering chips could be considered to be prejudicial to the welfare of the organization. The organization is made up of members. Anything that is prejudicial to the welfare of the members endangers the organization. We've had one BOD member resign. It certainly appears that the resignation stemmed from a series of events that can be traced back to the altering of brass core chips. sad

From the code of ethics:
"2. To conduct myself so as to bring no discredit to the Club..." In my opinion, Bill Borlands chips were a discredit to the hobby, and to the club if it was in existance then. Again, in my opinion, there is very little difference between those counterfeit chips and the altered brass core chips. Neither is the real thing.

Again from the code of ethics:
"6. Not to sell, exhibit, produce nor advertise counterfeits, copies, reproductions or restrikes of any item unless their nature is clearly indicated as such." Please define "clearly". A drilled chip "clearly" indicates that it is no longer in play. A chip sold to someone with a verbal "I filled in the drill hole" tells one person...and if the person is a novice they might not even understand what a drill hole is, or that the chip has been substantially altered.

Still from the code of ethics:
"7. To represent casino collectibles as genuine only when to the best of my knowledge and belief, such items are in fact authentic, and when no significant question of their authenticity has been raised. Please define "genuine". Say Harrah's has ordered 500 yellow $1 PMSC chips, and they have been approved by GCB. If the manufacturer produces 1200 of the brass cores, are the 700 that are not used to fill the order still considered genuine? The casino didn't order them, GCB didn't approve them, but the manufacturer made them. If someone else then gets the cores and pours plastic onto the core, and makes it look like a genuine chip....isn't that counterfeiting??? Isn't putting counterfeit collectibles on the market wrong??? Maybe I'd feel a little differently if all of the altered chips had a "W" stamped in them from the start, but they didn't. It sounds like some collectors have already been ripped off, and I believe that any reasonable person could have forseen that happening and should have taken steps to prevent it.

Messages In This Thread

One more try at "counterfeit" ...
Re: One more try at "counterfeit" ...
Re: I'd appreciate a response, Jim...
Re: Jim just happens to ...
Partial response ...
Re: Partial response ...
David, to repeat what I said ...
Re: JIM, to repeat what I said ...
Gene, I can only repeat ...
Re: One more try at "counterfeit" ...
Came back for another look grin ...
Re: One more try at "counterfeit" ...
The drilled chip ...
Re: The drilled chip ...
Can't answer that one ...
Re: Thanks, Jim.
Re: The drilled chip ...
Pam, I appreciate the fervor ...
Jim, at what point in your inquiry did you ...
Re: Jim, at what point in your inquiry did you ...
See my response to JB ...
I don't recall saying ...
Re: Pam, I appreciate the fervor ...
Pam, you argue well ...
Re: Pam, you argue well ...
Thank you for providing my ...
Re: Pam, you argue well ...
Re: Pam, you argue well ...
Re: Pam, you argue well ...
Re: Pam, you argue well ...
Re: Pam, you argue VERY well ...
Which is pretty much ...
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Re: Pam, you argue well ...
Re: Pam, you argue well ...
Re: Pete, you argue well ...
Re: Pam, you argue well ...
Re: Pam, you argue well ...
Pete....
Re: Pete....
Re: Pete....
Re: Pete....
Re: Pam, you argue well ...
Re: Once More
Re: Once More
Re: "intent
Re: One more try at "counterfeit" ...
Re: One more try at "counterfeit" ...
Chips in question were not altered for home use ..
Re: Chips in question were not altered for home us
Re: Chips in question were not altered for home us
I like the term "altered" ...
Re: I like the term "altered" ...
Re: One more try at "counterfeit" ...
Re: One more try at "counterfeit" ...
Re: hypothetical ??
Re: hypothetical ??
Re: hypothetical ??
Re: One more try at "counterfeit" ...
Let me preface this by saying ...
Re: Let me preface this by saying ...
You may be right about this ...
Re: One more try at "counterfeit" ...

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