Jim,

You started a new thread about this? OK, if that's what you want. I have no doubt that you will reject everything I say out of hand, but viewers may find the discussion interesting and informative. Perhaps not.

What happened was that Katie jumped into a lengthy thread about sellers being able to cancel bids and end an auction early, and she asked what would happen if a seller at a live auction loudly announced he was not going to sell the item because he had just discovered it was worth a lot more than he thought when he put it up for auction. I responded with what I intended as humor, but was taken as demeaning by Katie and others. My point was that the question was irrelevant, since live and online auctions are "fundamentally" different, and what would happen in one situation would not apply to the other.

Jim thinks live and online auctions are fundamentally the same.

So, what is the fundamental difference between live and online auctions?

Well, basketball and football are "fundamentally" the same; team sports that involve moving a ball to a goal for points, the high point team at the conclusion of the time period being the winner. However, I'm sure you agree that they are completely different in "fundamental" ways, the ways points are scored, the size of the teams, the RULES, etc. etc. etc.

The "fundamental" differences between live and online auctions are many. Here are a few.

Please remember that there are exceptions to virtually every situation, just add the word "generally" to every direct statement I make, and this post will be shorter:

1. Online auctions do not offer the bidder the opportunity to preview the items offered, while live auctions do allow the bidder to physically inspect the items prior to bidding.

2. Live auctions are three party transactions, bidders bid via an auctioneer on items owned by a third party, then pay the auctioneer who deducts his fee and pays the balance to the seller. Online auctions are two party transactions, seller and buyer. The auctioneer is an agent of the seller in the live auction environment, there is no auctioneer as such in the online situation

3. Live auctions continue until all bidders have an opportunity to make their best bid and the auctioneer gavels the auction closed, while online auctions end at a set date and time.

4. In many live auction situations, a seller can bid dynamically on his own items, or the auctioneer can place bids on behalf of the seller (as long as the bidders are notified of this before the auction begins), this is prohibited on online auction venues.

You ask "Why exactly is it "unfair" to compare the two, particularly in the context of a discussion of how problems might be handled in concluding an auction?"

Because they are two different animals, with two different sets of rules. If a seller changed his mind about selling in the middle of a live auction, what would happen would depend on the rules for that auction house, and his agreement with the auctioneer. At a live auction, until the gavel comes down and a bid is declared the final winning bid, there is no contract, and a seller may well be able to withdraw his item. Then again, he might NOT be able to do so.

On the other hand, with an ebay auction, the rules for ending an auction early, at the discretion of the seller, are clearly set forth. We all now agree that canceling bids and ending an auction early is allowable within the eBay rules. Don't we?

You say "The eBay rules say a bid establishes a "contract". Placing an auction on eBay is offering to enter into a contract; once a bid is placed, a contract has been established. If the eBay rules permit cancellation of all bids for the reason that the seller has received a better offer from someone outside eBay, then the folks at eBay aren't as smart as they think they are."

Jim, placing a bid on eBay, OR at a live auction, DOES NOT create a contract! Why is this so hard for you to grasp? I know you think it SHOULD create a contract, but it doesn't. The rest of your statement, about eBay not being as smart as they think they are, reflects on you more than it does on them.

After all, they have millions of happy buyers and sellers, and they serve as a venue for millions of auctions every week, and the vast majority of users are quite happy with the rules the way they are. There are very good reasons why the rules are the way they are, and I think any objective person who thought about all the ramifications of a rule change would conclude that the seller HAS to have the right to withdraw an item in an online auction environment.

You ask "How do you feel about buyers canceling their bids because they discover they have bid too much for an item?"

My answer is "it depends", because you haven't given me enough information. If he bid too much because of a typo (99.9 instead of 9.99 for instance), he is clearly entitled to retract his bid.

Also, if the buyer wants to cancel his bid because he has discovered additional information about the item itself that effects the value, and the seller should have disclosed it, he has every right to retract his bid before the auction has ended, and most eBay sellers would encourage him to do so. I would be happy to give you some examples, if you want.

On the other hand, if the reason behind his retraction is because he found a better price elsewhere, or simply has "buyers remorse", he is not allowed to retract his bid. However, most sellers would agree that they would rather have a bid retracted during the term of an auction, for inappropriate reasons, than force an unhappy buyer to complete a purchase he did not want to make.

Thousands of legitimate bid retractions occur daily on eBay. Some inappropriate retractions occur as well. It's a huge venue, and all sorts of situations come up. The rules are designed to protect the most people in the most cases.

You ask, "Exactly why do you think it is inappropriate to ask a question designed to obtain information about a subject the questioner is unfamiliar with?"

I do not think asking a hypothetical question is inappropriate. I said this particular question was inappropriate, because it suggested that what would happen in a live auction environment is somehow relevant to what should happen on eBay.

Finally, you say "I suspect that the real "fundamental difference" here is that Katie (and Peter) are buyers and you are a seller."

Now, that's the crux of it, isn't it, Jim. Include yourself in that group. Sellers against buyers? Buyers are always right and sellers are always wrong? Your logic seems to come from someone who only considers the buyers side of a situation, rather than both sides, and your transaction history reflects that.

On the other hand, I have hundreds of buying transactions, and thousands of selling transactions under my belt. I am every bit as much an eBay buyer as I am a seller, I spent about $12,000 on eBay purchases last year, and am on the same pace this year. I have been on both sides of just about every issue you can imagine (except seller fraud, LOL). My views come from having familiarized my self with the rules, and from having seen them applied in hundreds of "sticky" cases. I tend to look at both sides of a situation before reaching a conclusion, can you say the same?