... to the questions I posed:

>> What is the rationale behind a rule prohibiting shill bidding? << The best rationale I have seen advanced was by Robert Eisenstadt. In the final analysis, I don't think his concerns warrant a proscription against shill bidding, but he made the most cogent argument.

>> What interest of the free will buyer, if any, is being protected by a rule against shill bidding? << In my opinion, no legitimate interest worthy of being protected.

>> Is there a factual situation in which a buyer can ACTUALLY be HARMED by the use of a shill bidder, as opposed to the use of a higher minimum bid or reserve price? << Robert's suggestion that "anxiety" can constitute real harm comes closest; in my opinion, there is not and cannot be any real harm arising solely out of the use of shill bidding.

>> What is the real difference between use of a hidden reserve and use of a shill bidder? << As demonstrated in the example I quoted, there is no real difference. The hidden reserve effectively works as a mindless shill bid.

>> If you think shill bidding is "unfair" to the buyer, WHY? << I don't.

>> If you think shill bidding destroys the "integrity" of the auction, WHY? <<
I don't.

>> If you think shill bidding either is or ought to be "illegal" (that is, criminal in the real world), WHY? << My god, no -- another thing government should keep its nose out of.

>> As long as the buyer has the final word on how much he is willing to spend, what difference does it make how he gets there? << This is the key point; the bidder can stop at any time. Free will (and I don't believe in protecting the buyer from his own stupidity).

NEVERTHELESS, I also believe that if the rules of the auction venue prohibit shill bidding, sellers should not use shill bidders and I would not only accept but would favor penalties for violations of the rule (suspension and/or banishment). Note, although I was NOT addressing eBay here, it is my opinion that if the buyer concludes the sale, it is NOT a shill bid under eBay rules.

FURTHERMORE, if I were selling via an auction venue, I would not use either a reserve price or seller/shill bidding, unless minimum bids are not permitted. I would set a reasonable minimum bid (that is, one I would accept, if not happily, if there happened to be only one bid). I don't have enough experience at this to know how the minimum bid would be set, but probably some percentage of the catalog value (assuming no untoward considerations, like a new box found or something like that). I personally think this is the best method for the seller (this is both a practical, not an ethical opinion).

HOWEVER, if minimum bids were not permitted, I would participate as a seller only if either a reserve or seller/shill bidding were permitted. The reasons for this should be self-evident. If not, someone ask and I'll explain.

See my separate post re Auction Shill Bidding survey. For those who are bored with this thread, sorry, but I'm not done yet. ----- jim o\-S